Faceoff Factor

Comments

1. Dave

   Feb 16, 12:24 AM

   Matt – Another nice writeup (as usual). You’re right that Therrien seemed to have lost the team — it’s not like he didn’t think to tell them to play hard and stay disciplined. And you’re right they really don’t have anything to lose at this point. But I think the underlying problem is that this team just isn’t that good. As I said before, this team is going to go as far as Fleury can take them. He was amazing against San Jose and they won. He was excellent, but less perfect against Toronto, and they lost. San Jose had like 36 shots. Toronto had 41 shots. That’s a ridiculous number of shots to give up to a team like that. A couple of the lines quit in the third period. Or went into every man for himself mode.

   As for trading deadline deals — who do they have to trade? Whitney isn’t going to be stretch run help for any team, as he’s playing badly as evidenced by taking over the +/- bottom in not many games at all. And what would Stahl bring to another team? A strong defensive presence and a streaky scorer? Not something that there’s much demand for at the trade deadline. Sykora might be their most tradeable asset, among the players they’d trade that is.

   Shero lost a lot of valuable players and the ones he locked up — Orpik, Fleury, Stahl, Eaton, Talbot and Dupuis — certainly aren’t playing any better than they did last year, and probably not as well. In fact, which players on the Penguins’ roster are playing better this year than they did last year? Malkin is. Sykora maybe, he hasn’t lost ground anyway. Letang probably, but he’s still inconsistent. Scuderi maybe. Who else?

2. Jay S

   Feb 16, 01:15 AM

   If this new coach is not the answer, what is then?

   Was it a panic move or a sign of things to come?

   Point is, if Shero does not turn the team around now, the offseason, and next year his ass is gone.

3. Eric

   Feb 16, 01:28 AM

   This was a too little too late move. It should’ve been made a month ago. I liked Therrien as a coach, but it was clear that the players were unresponsive to him. When that happens, it’s pretty important to resolve the situation asap.

   Shero probably wanted to make the move a month ago, but likely sat on the decision till now. Buying some time to allow Therrien more of a chance. It didn’t work.

   Rob, I’m sure you were saying that last year during the playoffs when Hossa was helping the team out. As far as I’m concerned the only regretful piece they traded away there was their 1st. Gotta learn to take the good with the bad.

4. Zach Boslett

   Feb 16, 01:42 AM

   Rob, who would you have preferred Shero to sign? Read this article written recently by the legendary Matt .

   Rolston? No. Demitra? No. Naslund? No… It was a pathetically thin FA crop and Shero did the best he could after the Hossa situation. Ryder, Hagman, and Miettinen are the only players I would have considered signing, and Hagman and Miettinen are the only players living up to their contracts.

   My question for you is what would you have done differently?

5. RYANS

   Feb 16, 01:53 AM

   The players were responsive last year when they had more talent and were winning consistently from late january/february until the finals. He lost the team and obviously he had to go eventually, but they waited a little too long to do it. Personally I think Shero needs to go, the Hossa trade and terrible offseason moves, Eaton’s contract alone would have covered both Hall and Conklin for two years as I have noted before, are what caused the Pens to lose their grit and passion players.

   Still all the line shuffling and never, not once, putting Staal up with Geno where he scored 29 goals his rookie season – pathetic. Looks like we will just to have to enjoy the hockey we have left to watch this season and hope for the best.

6. Dave

   Feb 16, 05:35 AM

   “I didn’t particularly like the direction the team was headed in,” Executive Vice President Ray Shero said last night on a conference call. “I watched for a number of weeks, and at the end of the day, the direction is not what I wanted to have happen here.”

   “I’m not sure where it went wrong,” Shero said. “It’s been a tough year for us all here. I think we’re all disappointed with the results, but obviously, the expectations were higher.”

   Everyone is in agreement about that. Now maybe we’ll find out if “where it went wrong” was when Therrien lost control of his team or of it was when the talent level of the team dropped off significantly.

   I think the Hossa trade was excellent — they certainly wouldn’t have gotten as close as they did without him. I don’t think not having Armstrong or the others in that trade is why they’re losing — I think they’ve missed Gonchar and Conklin a lot more. I think they’re getting mediocre seasons from a lot of players who have longer contracts now, though.

   Maybe Therrien isn’t the right coach for these guys. Maybe the line changing and public criticism and left wing stints for defensemen and general lack of warmth was too much for the players to handle. He certainly never seemed like the kind of coach you “liked” as a player. If the players had an inkling he was going I can easily imagine they’d stop playing for him.

   I also wonder how much influence Lemieux has in what Shero does, in who he signs and doesn’t sign.

   In any case, we don’t need to take up a collection for Therrien. I don’t really know anything about Bylsma. Maybe they’ll play 60 minutes for him. Maybe they won’t quit when they get behind or relax when they get ahead. We shall see….

7. DaBich

   Feb 16, 06:35 AM

   Dave, wouldn’t it be nice to have a crystal ball to see how they will play under Bylsma? I say it won’t change much. But time will tell. It always does.

8. Ivan

   Feb 16, 06:45 AM

   Hey Rob – this is referring to comment #3.

   I’m sick of people like you. Did you really just say that the Hossa trade had no upside?! Are you insane?!

   You make me wish the Internet didn’t exist. This is why some people disable comments on their blogs.

   Where the hell do I start with you? First off, it’s pretty fair to say that even though we weren’t able to resign him, the Marian Hossa deal was a HUGE success. He clicked with Crosby and kicked ass in the playoffs. That’s what we wanted. A run at the Cup. And he helped us get to the Finals. What more do you want? He was an unrestricted free agent. And there were a few other teams, including Montreal, who made offers for him, so the Pens HAD to make a good offer and put up a couple players and prospects in order to get him. It’s a gutsy trade but we really didn’t give up much. I would do that trade again in a heartbeat if I was Ray Shero. As much as it pains me to say this, he got us huge goals against the Rangers, Flyers and Red Wings, and even though we didn’t win the Cup, I would say that 99.9% of Pens fans agree that it was a risk worth taking.

   Let’s put another thing to rest. And I’m SICK AND TIRED of people like you making comments about him – Colby Armstrong was nothing but a 3rd liner, and if he was still on the team he would remain a 3rd liner. He would never be able to stay on Crosby’s line for long stretches of time, and Erik Christensen has 4 goals and 16 points in 40 games – he’s horrible. Angelo Esposito has been an underachiever and has continued to not impress anybody. He barely made the World Juniors team for Canada. So basically we gave up the 29th pick in the draft, an underachieving prospect who will probably be a bust and Erik Christensen for Marian Hossa, a world class winger who helped us almost win the Stanley Cup! It was a GREAT TRADE. And Pascal Dupuis is arguably as good if not better than Colby Armstrong so those 2 cancel each other out. He’s a 3rd liner too who shouldn’t be playing with Sid, but the point is, we barely lost anything at all. In fact, I would argue that the Thrashers got screwed on that trade and should have gotten more in return.

   As for your comment about Ray Shero leaving at the end of next year – you know very little about the Penguins and the commitment they have for Ray Shero, who is one of the best general managers in the league, and you know very little about the NHL – most GMs are judged based on the work they’ve done in 5 years or more and whether they’ve been able to achieve the team’s long-term goals. They’re not judged based on 1 offseason.

   I’m still in shock over your comment on the Hossa trade though. Unf***inbelievable.

9. Ivan

   Feb 16, 06:52 AM

   OMG I just read comment #1. Rob you want Sidney Crosby TRADED and Ray Shero fired NOW. LOL... Wow you’re a total crackhead. Crosby is 3rd in the NHL in scoring and who won an MVP award at only 19 years of age and he is the heart and soul and captain of the team and has practically resurrected the franchise.

   But you want him traded. Hahahahahaha. Why did I even bother putting up a huge reply to your 2nd comment when your first one is the most asinine comments ever made about the Penguins.

   Please tell me you’re doing schtick and those 2 comments were total sarcasm…

   It just goes to prove that every team has THAT GUY as a fan. My God…

10. Miller

    Feb 16, 08:00 AM

    Trade Crosby.

    Hahahaha.

11. Bruce

    Feb 16, 09:24 AM

    If you recall I predicted right after they signed Therrien that he would never last because he was too much of a disciplinarian and not enough of a teacher. This is still a very young team. But those who criticize Crosby have a valid point, Sid has quit until they get him a elite winger. And this is where Shero has culpability by his drafting of countless centers and puck moving defensemen instead a physical defensemen and three quality snipers. I know that you can’t just wish them available but they never will come if you don’t draft them. Until then you have to have gritty players like Malone or Rutuu, to open space for your stars. Shero could have kept them both for what he paid for Eaton and Satan. His moves make no more sense than Yeo running of the PP the same way when it‘s obvious that it does not work.

12. Moq

    Feb 16, 09:53 AM

    Depending on the expectations and pressure from ownership, firing Therrien and hiring Bylsma wouldn’t have been my decision had I been in Shero’s shoes. Mainly because I’m not that infatuated with the quality of the roster. That and the number of injuries to key players should perhaps have bought Therrien a longer rope.

    Some might arue that the writing on the wall appeared much sooner, but you rarely see classy organizations fire their recent Stanley Cup final coach at the first sign of problems. Especially half way through the following season. Instead, they chose this defeat at the hands of Toronto and the overall effort as the final backbreaking straws.

    I would have held on to Therrien until reaching the playoffs was a mathematical impossibility with a permanent replacement in mind, not the uncertainty of an interim solution. One that would have the remainder of the season to judge the roster for next season and who’s recommendations would carry considerable weight during the offseason roster changes, ie. making the players accountable as well. Of course, if Bylsma leads the Penguins into the playoffs then everything looked like a fantastic managerial move. If not, we won’t be significantly better of.

    Rob, you do not make any sense. You can criticize Shero for many things, but the Hossa deal wouldn’t be one of them. I hope that a few more 3rd and 4th liners follow in the footsteps of Armstrong and Christensen out the door. In particular if the return is one singular improvement.

13. Pens1967

    Feb 16, 10:31 AM

    I find the coaching changes interesting. First Therrien’s friend and ally, Andre Savard, is taken out from behind the bench and reassigned elsewhere in the organization. Then Yeo, who arguably has done less with more on the powerplay than anyone could probably do, is retained. Next, you have one of Shero’s front office people, Tom Fitzgerald, replacing Savard.

    All that says to me is the Shero and company are interested in finding out if the coach was the problem or the players were/are the problem. Shero has removed the “Therrien factor” from the equation.
    You don’t put a Tom Fitzgerald behind the bench unless you suspect there’s a problem in the locker room. Fitzgerald will be able to report directly back to Shero his observations and interactions on and with the players.

    I also find some fault with Crosby. He is the captain, after all, but seemed less effective in that role this year.

14. Zach Boslett

    Feb 16, 10:34 AM

    I wholeheartedly agree that Crosby has been lacking this season mainly due to his lack of wing support and the team’s power play struggles. But if you compare Malkin and Crosby, Crosby has had almost no consistency over the past two seasons.

    Last season, the most consistent period of time for Crosby was when he was able to establish chemistry with Dupuis and Hossa in the playoffs. Malkin was able to establish Chemistry with Sykora almost immediately due to Therrien’s line juggling. Sykora and Crosby played sparingly together so he tried Sykie and Malk together and they meshed right away.

    This season, Crosby has played with Dupuis, Malkin, Staal, Kennedy, Talbot, Satan, Minard, Caputi, Cooke, and Fedotenko.

    Malkin has played with many of these players too, but when he has anchored his own line, the core of the line was either XXXX-Crosby-Malkin or Fedotenko-Malkin-Sykora. Therrien refused to give Crosby a consistent line, couple that with Crosby’s injury struggles, the lack of power play points, and Crosby attempting to be a miracle worker with Dupuis and Kennedy… It is not all on Shero for not magically producing a winger for Sid in the offseason.

    I think the best aspect of the Therrien firing is the consistency the new coach will bring. Consistency to the power play personnel, regular lines, etc.

    Sykora, in a recent European interview, said he found it very frustrating how he would be told his linemates at the morning skate and they would be completely different come game time and different by the first intermission.

    Rob still waiting on your alternative play for Shero last offseason. Good idea trading Crosby btw.

15. Dave

    Feb 16, 10:41 AM

    I think Shero — and Lemieux — came to two conclusions. 1) Staying the course with Therrien and the current roster would not get them into the playoffs; and 2) No trade deadline deal was going to save the season, either because there were no deals to be made or because it would be too late by then. So given the desire to get in the playoffs, and given the general demeanor of the team, and given Therrien’s ineffectiveness in getting them to play 60 minutes, firing him was probably perceived as the only way to go. I’m sure that Shero doesn’t know whether it will work either, but he didn’t have a lot of other cards to play. Bylsma is a good coach, he knows the players, and maybe he’ll get a different atmosphere going in the lockerroom. Or he won’t — but I think this is Pens management saying they are committed to winning and they’ll do what they can to make that happen. The difference between winning and losing in hockey can be a very fine line, one defined more by attitude than talent. They’re still going to owe Therrien $2M or so, and I’m sure they know they’ll be criticized for firing a coach who had them in the Cup finals last year.

    It is possible that Therrien had a little too much of a rule by terror approach, to the point where the players were afraid to do anything for fear of making a mistake. Maybe he’d taken all the spontaneity out of it for them. Maybe changing wingers and systems had them all thinking too much. Who knows. But I don’t see this as an obviously bad or stupid move move, and it could turn out to be just what was necessary.

    Maybe Shero & Lemieux are really trying to avoid the Ottawa Senators arc — Cup finals, barely in playoffs, terrible in a three year span.

16. Doc Nagel

    Feb 16, 11:40 AM

    Invective aside, Shero can’t be blamed for losing Hossa to the Wings, or for Malone leaving. These are the most significant changes from last year’s team core. Hossa made his own decision, and it seems Shero made as good an offer as Hossa got. That offer held up any potential offer for Malone, Hall, or anybody else. He assumed (rightly) that he couldn’t keep Hossa, Malone, Roberts, Laraque, and Hall, because the money wouldn’t be there.

    The biggest impact on the team this year is not the loss of Hossa. Sid has never had top scoring linemates, and under Therrien never had consistent linemates.

    Malone’s loss, which was inevitable, is significant, because he made Malkin and Sykora more productive. They need someone in front causing havoc. But even that isn’t the biggest loss to the team this year.

    The biggest impact is that there hasn’t been a reliable 4th line that gave the team energy. That’s invaluable to any team, but absolutely necessary to a playoff team. This year? Godard has half the skill set and skating ability Laraque has. When Zigomanis was healthy, they at least won faceoffs.

17. Moq

    Feb 16, 12:34 PM

    Claiming that the lack of a reliable 4th line has had a significant impact on this season is absurd in my opinion. Injuries and inconsistant performances have had a detrimental impact on the reliability of any line. You can question the line juggling tendencies of Therrien, but you’d be hard pressed to name a line combination worth keeping for a handful of games. The cycling of 3rd or 4th line wingers with Crosby became our weapon of choice. Unfortunately, as unreliable a weapon as one could expect.

    There have been many problems, my preferred choice is the lack of structured defensive effort, but the 4th line performance isn’t among the greatest. I would characterize it as collateral damage due to other malfunctions.

18. ballofhate

    Feb 16, 01:13 PM

    Ivan, ignore Rob as best you can. He’s actually rooting against the team he claims he supports in the hope that his ridiculous claims prove to be true. He’s no fan.

    I like Therrien. Granted, his constant line changing wears on me, as well. But even he seemed to lose his fire in recent months. Where was the fire he displayed two years ago when the team wasn’t playing well? I wouldn’t have objected to him ripping into someone once in a while. It’s clear that the change was needed, however. Go Pens.

19. Pens1967

    Feb 16, 02:46 PM

    I agree wholeheartedly that the lack of a 4th line in which Therrien had confidence was a lot bigger problem than anyone would think. Therrien’s system really requires rolling 4 lines and for much of the season he hasn’t been able to do that. I don’t think he ever had enough confidence in Godard to put him out there for 8-10 minutes a game and therefore the time for his preferred 4th was stunted.

    I agree about wingers for Sid, too. Therrien has tried just about everyone on the roster and none have really clicked with Sid. Don’t forget Sid was playing with Malone and Sykora before he was hurt and Malkin took over his center spot on that line. Neither Sykora nor Malone was having great success with Crosby up until then. OTOH, as was said, Malkin seems to be able to generate offense no matter who he’s paired with, although he and Sykora did play together in Europe during the strike/lockout season.

20. Pens1967

    Feb 16, 05:15 PM

    Well, I think wanting to trade Crosby is way over the top. But I do think Sid has kind of plateaued this year. He needs to diversify his offensive game by learning to become a true goal-scoring threat every time he touches the puck (as Malkin has become). I’m not sure opponents respect Sid’s ability to score so they play him to pass and that just leads to less space in which his wingers can operate freely and creates a vicious circle.

21. Zack Dawson

    Feb 16, 05:30 PM

    Jumping in here very late, there’s a real sense of panic in these comments. Look, here’s the deal: You don’t trade Sidney Crosby or Evgeni Malkin. Why? Because they are two of the greatest players in the world. “Trade Crosby now while you can get something for him.” Really? The issue is that the team itself is not playing consistently. Malkin and Crosby have been the two players who have provided some kind of structure. Their position in the scoring race is evidence of that. Last season, everyone was saying “Trade Malkin, there’s no room for him.” At what point will the general Penguins’ fan population be satisfied? No one called for the head of Francis or Jagr when they and Mario were leading the league in scoring. Or for Mario’s.
    You can have two stars, but the cast around them has to support them. Sykora is the lone winger who has been able to keep up with either Sid or Geno and finish plays. Dupuis has done fine with Sid, but he’s not a high-profile guy. He won’t break 30 goals in a season no matter who he plays with.
    And Shero? He did what he could with what was there. Malone chose to walk, so Shero got what he could. Hossa was given the best deal by Pittsburgh possible and played turncoat. The Eaton signing was made on the chance that Hossa signs, because Orpik would have been gone. The free agent pool was thin, but he brought in some players who have provided some spark (Cooke and Fedotenko primarily).
    Let’s just face it: This season had the odds very much against them for one reason or another. They haven’t risen to the occasion enough, and we’re on the outside looking in.

22. bag o' pucks

    Feb 16, 08:45 PM

    Well, Zack, generally speaking, fans are only satisfied when their team wins the championship, then the complaining is quieted for about an hour. Not being sarcastic, actually agreeing that at no point are all fans going to be satisfied.

    The fans who wanted the Pens to trade Malkin were wrong. The fan (as far as I can tell, there’s only one) who wants the Pens to trade Crosby is wrong. There’s a good reason why guys like Rob are internet tough guys, rather than GMs.

    I think Shero knew, once Hossa signed somewhere else, that this season was going to be a step backward. He inserted some stop-gaps that, as it turns out, didn’t do much gap-stopping.

    The good news is that Satan, Boucher, Gill, and probably Tenk will be gone after the season. I suspect he’ll make an effort at signing Sykora and Scuds. Otherwise, that’s over $10M off the books. Malkin and Staal’s cap number increases will come to about a total of $6.6M. Honestly, I expect Whitney will be dealt, which would free up $4M more. Gogo has to be re-signed, I expect a modest increase there.

    Subtract all that and that’s about $7.5M Shero can use to find one lethal winger and perhaps a plugger or two. We’ll just have to wait until July to see what happens. Guys like Taffe & Pesonen may be NHLers full-time next year.

23. ballofhate

    Feb 16, 11:37 PM

    Pens1967, I think opponents do respect Crosby’s goal scoring ability. He scored 75 goals before he was 20 years old. What opponents don’t respect are Dupuis, Talbot, Kennedy, Fedotenko, etc. They attack Crosby immediately and are much less concerned with the goal scoring ability of the “who’s that” playing on Crosby’s wings. Both Crosby & Malkin do a lot of scoring when they’re together because it’s a Herculean labor to take them both away. One guy, not so much. Even Mario needed help on the wing before the Pens won Cups.

    I’m going to go run and hide, now, because someone who lives in his mom’s basement challenged me to a fight over the internet.

24. Pens1967

    Feb 17, 12:04 AM

    I’m not saying Crosby can’t score goals, it’s his propensity always to look to pass first that’s the issue, IMHO. Isn’t it easier to play against an opponent who basically makes himself one dimensional? If Sid looked to score more himself, it might help his wingers, too, don’t you think?

    I also believe the reason Crosby and Malkin work out ok is because of Malkin’s ability, not Sid’s.

25. BallofHate

    Feb 17, 11:31 AM

    Of course, but I don’t think Crosby makes himself one dimensional. You and the colossal ignoramus himself, Rob (admit it Rob, you don’t think for yourself, you don’t think at all! Now turn off that flashlight and go to bed before your mom finds out you’re awake. Although thanks for admitting that someone has to read these posts back to you, idiot.), are critical of the guy because he isn’t dominating the league, 20 points ahead in the scoring race. Never mind that he’s one of the top three forwards in the league playing with third line wingers. Malkin is a elite talent, too, but at least he has a legit sniper in Sykora to finish some of his amazing creativity. The constant in Malkin’s game has been Sykora, it hasn’t much mattered who’s put on the LW. Crosby and Hossa were dominant in the playoffs last season. That’s what happens when good players can play with other good players.

    Comparing their strengths is an exercise in splitting hairs. Kinda like when Rob tried to part his hair so his helmet fits him just right!

26. Matt Bodenschatz

    Feb 17, 11:40 AM

    Guys, please keep the posts free of profanity and personal attacks.

27. BallofHate

    Feb 17, 11:51 AM

    I didn’t use any profanity but, c’mon, when a guy wants to trade Crosby, admits an aversion to reading, and threatens to beat up people on a message board…how am I not supposed to have fun with that?

    I refrained from suggesting he pick up some Summer’s Eve because that would get the sand out of his vagi…wait, would that count as profanity?

28. Matt Bodenschatz

    Feb 17, 11:53 AM

    I mentioned profanity as a general reminder to all. All I ask is that if it can’t be kept civil, just ignore him.

29. DaBich

    Feb 17, 06:06 PM

    OK, a comment from an older fan here. I do believe Malkin is the better player and the better leader. He didn’t “bloom” until a few seasons later because he wasn’t comfortable with the language. He is the better player hands down. However, Sid is a good player as well. No one gets to be the third leading scorer on a struggling team if he “sucks”. Trade him? I don’t think so. Tweak the lines, bring in a wing for him if you can. But trade him? NO.
    Oh and I said it before and I’ll repeat it…there is definitely something going on in the locker room, and I hope Fitzgerald figures it out.

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