Report: Pens And Guerin Working On Contract Extension
Matt Bodenschatz | Pittsburgh Penguins
Jun 21, 12:18 PM | Hype this story!
After a solid performance in the 2009 Stanley Cup Playoffs, Bill Guerin is looking to stay in Pittsburgh, and the Penguins are willing to oblige.
According to Andy Strickland of HockeyBuzz.com, Penguins general manager Ray Shero is working on a contract extension for the veteran forward that would keep him in town for at least one more year.
Strickland said, “There is a good chance Guerin re-signs before July first.”
Though no numbers have been discussed, Brian Metzer, also of HockeyBuzz.com suggests it could be a two-year deal at $2 million per year.
Metzer added: “Having spoken with Guerin about his time in Pittsburgh, I can tell you that he was absolutely blown away by the way he was received in Pittsburgh. He is also quick to point out that playing with Sidney Crosby and the rest of this group has reinvigorated him and helped him have fun playing the game again.”
Comments
DaBich
Jun 21, 01:16 PM
Matt, is that a bit steep for a player of his age? On the other hand, he meshed will with Sid, so maybe he’ll earn that $2M a year.
Pens1967
Jun 21, 01:30 PM
2 yrs is too long and 2M is too much to pay for “vetern leadership”. The Pens have been down this road before with Leclaire, Recchi, Roberts and Sydor. None of those re-signings ultimately worked out well in the end.
It’s time for Shero to promote a young winger who Sid can grow with, not keep bringing in a rent-a-winger each year or an over-the-hill vet at the trade deadline. Frankly, Crosby deserves better than this strategy.
Moq
Jun 21, 02:59 PM
In the case of Guerin, I would prefer $2M for one year rather than $3.5M for two if that or something similar was the choice. As mentioned by Pens1967, the Penguins have been wrong about the veteran leadership expiration date a few times already.
If signed, Guerin is unlikely to play all 82 games, so it should be possible to give some youngster a few games with Crosby. Unfortunately, there are not that many capable of filling that role with the possible exception of Kennedy (or maybe Pesonen?). The likes of Caputi and Tangradi could use another year, be it third/fourth line duty in the NHL or top minutes in the AHL respectively.
Steve
Jun 21, 03:12 PM
Bill Guerin was not an afterthought this year. The guy played well and scored big goals throughout the players. He is not just “veteran leadership.” The guy can skate and finish. That’s two things that Sidney Crosby has been lacking. There is no comparison between Guerin and Leclaire.
Pens1967
Jun 21, 03:23 PM
Let’s be realistic here and not just judge Guerin on what he did at the end of the season and in the playoffs. He was highly motivated to win another Stanley Cup and that likely was a big contributor to his play. But, we can’t forget his performance on the Island prior to the trade or on other teams prior to that. As has been reported, Shero and co gambled that a chance for another championship would re-ignite his fire. Guerin’s lackluster play on the Island probably was the reason Snow could only get a max 3rd round pick for him. Guerin may have been “great in the room” on a winning team, but how will he be if the Pens stumble through the first 3+ months of the season like they did this year? Will he be the guy the Pens got at the trade deadline or the one who mailed it in on the Island?
I think there’s a reason Guerin has been traded by so many teams and re-signed by so few.
bag o' pucks
Jun 21, 05:03 PM
If that’s the case, 2-yr $4M deal, I like it. Perhaps the deal may even be front-loaded, say $2.5M for the first year and $1.5M for the second. This gives the Pens’ young potential power forwards a year on the job in the AHL, then come up in 2010 and have a real mentor figure in how to be an NHL power forward. A guy like Guerin would be great for Tangradi, Caputi, Zabotel, Veilleux, whomever, passing on the real tricks of the trade and still being a presence in the room.
Malone’s breakout came after he had some time with John Leclair. Granted, Malone was older than these guys, but the principle remains. As Guerin is phased out, those young power forwards will be all the more ready. In theory, of course.
Pens1967
Jun 21, 07:27 PM
The thing is, you just never know how these vets will react when they are being “phased out”. No matter what they might say for public consumption, these vets all have big egos and they all still think they can play
better than some young guy being groomed as a replacement.
bag o' pucks
Jun 21, 09:06 PM
No sure things, 67. But, at $2M, Guerin’s a better option than Pascal Dupuis. In today’s day and age, $2M is a pretty good price for a 20-25 goal scorer. The Pens just don’t have a young winger ready for that duty, yet. For a rook or a second year pro to top six duty on the Stanley Cup Champs? No, not yet.
If a veteran has a problem with his ice time, the Pens will handle the situation fine. Waive him or send him home. None of those guys were a problem with their teammates, they served their purposes well. And none of those situation kept the team from winning consecutive Eastern Conference Titles and a Stanley Cup.
Pens1967
Jun 21, 10:42 PM
Not sure that you’re right that none of the vets was a problem in the locker room. Mark Recchi was reportedly becoming a bad actor before he was banished. Gary Roberts got publically upset when Therrien elected not to dress him in the playoffs last year, too.
I’m bothered by the fact that Guerin did not play with much, if any, enthusiasm on the Island. He wasn’t just a vet marking time and collecting a salary. He was the captain of the team. To me, that action says more about him than anything he did with the Pens.
Matt Bodenschatz
Jun 21, 10:49 PM
Great discussion, gang.
Allow me to add my insight.
To me, this is a no-brainer. Sure, the Penguins have gambled (and lost) by signing a few vets in the past. The difference is that, back then, the Pens had the cap space to sign other players and willingly chose veterans. Now, the cap space does not exist, and the Penguins will be hard-pressed to find a player capable of doing what Guerin does for $2 million.
As Bag mentions, at $2 million, Guerin would be making $800k more than Pascal Dupuis, who is a fourth liner with no hands. And, hypothetically, if Dupuis gets dealt — as many anticipate will happen — Guerin will be quite affordable.
Worth noting is that any contract signed after the player turns 35 is gauranteed and concrete. In other words, if Guerin signs for two years, then retires after the first year, his cap hit remains in place. The only way the Penguins could rid his cap hit would be to trade him. That is my only concern.
Albert
Jun 21, 11:26 PM
That was my concern, and interesting that Matt singles it out.
1 year, MAXIMUM for Guerin, IMO.
$2M may be “fair market” but it is still a risk when a hockey player—w/ a lot of hard miles—is pushing 40 y.o.
With the cap going down next year, if Guerin is dead weight in his 2nd year, the Penguins entire team could be jeopardized.
1 year.
If it works, the Pens can re-evaluate at the end of the season….
Albert
Jun 21, 11:29 PM
On Dupuis…yes, $1.4M may be slightly over market, but not much. He’s very good on the PK, he’s got speed and good energy, and he’s got good chemistry w/ the rest of the team.
I just don’t see Shero working hard to deal him.
KG
Jun 22, 12:06 AM
I am a little leary on Guerin accepting $2MM…Something tells me he’s going to get closer to $3MM, if not from the Pens then someone else…hope I’m wrong. But he made $4.5MM the past 2 years, that’s big bucks. I’m not sure how realistic it is for him to take a $2.5MM per year hit in pay…we’ll see soon enough…
bag o' pucks
Jun 22, 12:11 AM
Well, 67, I think there’s enough of a difference now from when those other situations arose. Vets in today’s league who have trouble transitioning to youth won’t get to go out on their own terms. Ask Roberts about that. Or Leclair.
Maybe those vets weren’t ready to pass the torch. But it’s passed now. Crosby’s won the Cup, Malkin the Conn Smythe, Ovechkin consecutive Hart’s. Messier nominated Crosby for his leadership award. Even Roenick’s yapping about Crosby and Ovechking leading the way. The transition is done.
The Pens aren’t building around youth. Their built. This is Crosby’s team, Malkin’s, Fleury’s, Staal’s. Everyone who goes into that room knows the score. And with a Stanley Cup comes championship credibility. No one’s going to go into that room and be a disruption.
Can there be more polar opposites than Bylsma and Therrien? Guys, young and old, know where they stand with Bylsma, if they didn’t with Therrien.
I don’t think character is going to be an issue with this club. And if this rumor is true, Guerin for two years at $2M per, sign him up.
DaBich
Jun 22, 06:30 AM
It’s getting closer to July 1! Can’t wait to see how things settle…
Matt Bodenschatz
Jun 22, 10:11 AM
@Albert, if Guerin — a first line winger who proved he still has some gas left in the tank — is a cap liability at $2 million, Dupuis most certainly is a cap liability at $1.4 million. While Dupuis is a spedy penalty killer, he also is a fourth liner who was not missed as a healthy scratch for a stretch of games in the playoffs. I like the guy a lot, I really do, but I can justify a first liner a $2 million much easier than a fourth liner at $1.4 million.
@KG, those suggesting $2 million are very close to the situation and aren’t known to exaggerate. They may be wrong, but the likelihood of them being right is pretty high, I would think.
@Bag, excellent point. It most certainly now is a team and league of the youth. Not every player will accept that, but Guerin most certainly seems to have, and it is evident in the way he talks about Sid and the way he interacts with him on the bench and on the ice.
To those who think re-signing Guerin for two years is a mistake, I can see where you’re coming from. It is a risk, especially with the cap expected to drop for the 2010 season. But, I think at this point, we have to trust that what Shero does will be in the best interest of the team. After being here just three years, he’s won the Penguins a Cup. And don’t think for a second that this was all or mostly Craig Patrick’s doing. Shero may have had a core of players in place when he arrived, but he also made many moves to bring character to this team — Guerin, Boucher, Cooke, Fedotenko, Kunitz, etc. They don’t win the Cup without these players. Shero knows what he’s doing. And while he has made a few mistakes in the past with regard to aging players, he can’t give up on that population simply because he has been bitten in the past.
Pens1967
Jun 22, 10:28 AM
While I think 1.4M is a bit much for Dupuis, keep in mind the NHL has a total salary floor as well as a ceiling and also a minimum player salary. Players like Caputi, for ex, are already making 875k/yr on their first contracts. When you look at Dupuis’ salary compared to his age and years in the league, his salary is not as bad as it looks.
I’m just not sold on Guerin, especially for two years. But, we’ll see.
TheOneAndOnlySurge
Jun 22, 10:53 AM
@Pens1967, true there is a floor but its not 875k. I’m not positive but I believe its more like 475k. Jeffery’s salary backs this up as his salary is estimated to be 508k. With that in mind, I would love to see Dupuis dealt to sign Adams/Zigomanis. His salary would cover a good portion of them. Like Matt said I too like Dupuis. I even love his slapper but he will only play on the fourth line on this team and 1.4m is way too much for a fourth line player.
TheOneAndOnlySurge
Jun 22, 10:56 AM
Just found this on the CBA website.
http://www.nhl.com/nhlhq/cba/index.html
MINIMUM PLAYER SALARY
What is the new minimum NHL player salary?
The minimum NHL player salary in 2005-06 and 2006-07 will be $450,000; $475,000 in 2007-08 and 2008-09; $500,000 in 2009-10 and 2010-11, and $525,000 in 2011-12 (to the extent the CBA is extended by the Union).
What happens with players who have contracts for 2005-06 for less than the minimum salary?
The player’s contract may be bought out. If the contract is not bought out, his salary must be increased to the League minimum.
Matt Bodenschatz
Jun 22, 11:13 AM
@Surge, thanks for the salary information.
@Pens, if we’re looking at age and years in the league as primary ways to judge contracts, Dupuis’ isn’t bad at all. In fact, it’s a steal. But that is only part of the picture. You have to look at what he brings to the table. As a first liner, one year ago, I liked him at $1.4 million, as he was logging big minutes and was paid to be the defensive presence on Crosby’s line. That didn’t work out, and he found himself on the fourth line. Any fourth liner making more than $1 million is a cap liability. In my opinion, the fourth line combined should earn no more than $2.5 million (and even that is high), especially on a team with several superstars making big bucks on the top lines, on defense, and in goal.
I think what we have to realize is that, while Guerin’s gas tank may be closer to empty than full, he proved he still can contribute in many different ways. Maybe keeping him fresh would require benching him on the less important of back-to-back games and/or periodically throughout the season. Maybe it means limiting his icetime, especially in games against lesser opponents when the Penguins have a commanding lead. Maybe it means splitting his power play minutes with Kunitz. All of these subtle methods would reduce his icetime and (hopefully) help to keep him fresh.
As for concerns over his character, I think those need to be put to rest. He came to Pittsburgh and became an instant hit in the locker room — which was clearly evidenced during the Stanley Cup parade and within several newspaper articles that included quotes from players. Sure, he wasn’t the best leader in New York. That’s not a good thing. But he also was playing on a team that was and still is going absolutely nowhere. He wanted to win, and he had zero chance on Long Island. And, let’s be honest, if the Penguins hit another rough stretch, as they did from December to February, the team has much bigger problems than Guerin. I hope the drought of late 08 and early 09 was a fluke — not something we deal with on a regular basis.
Also, we have to remember that $2 million first liners aren’t out there. They just don’t exist. The options are to rush Tangradi or Caputi and potentially stunt their development, or bring back a guy like Guerin who may be a bit risky, but also may come with a high reward.
bag o' pucks
Jun 22, 11:53 AM
Rossi is reporting that the Pens are seeking one-year deals with both Guerin and Tenk, and are not opposed to a two-year deal with Tenk (two-year deal not mentioned with Guerin, though likely not out of the question). I think the Pens are in an ideal situation. Guys like Guerin and Tenk here for another year or two, we know that injuries are inevitable, so guys like Caputi, Tangradi, Zabotel, Veilleux, they will get a cup of coffee at some point this season. Then, they step in full time, on merit, when the vets make they’re way out. Provides solid org depth.
Rossi is also commenting that Scuderi is a goner, something I think we’ve all come to acknowledge here. I don’t even have him in my projection for next year, anymore. Shero will stick with Lovejoy, and go looking for a cheap 6/7, a fairly easy find. Apparently Adams is seeking a multi-year deal. Too bad, I would have welcomed that guy back, but on a one-year deal. I think Zigo is a pretty fair lock to return. A nice thing to have, perhaps the best faceoff man in the league, as a depth player.
In terms of leadership, I think it’s interesting that guys like Roberts, Sydor, Malone, all sent text messages to Brooks Orpik. Granted, perhaps those messages were to several guys, but it was Orpik who spoke of it. Just shows the regard that he has with players who’ve come through here. His cap hit is $3.75M. Jeff Finger is at $3.5M. If that’s market value, what a deal the Pens are getting with Orpik given both his abilties and intangibles.
blue hen jeff
Jun 22, 12:00 PM
Matt,
I have to agree with you about the fact that 2 million dollar first liners are not out there. When looking at a player like Guerin and evaluating his possible salary, I think it is necessary to see what the alternatives are at his price. Looking over the free agent list, the only name that is somewhat appealing to me is Mike Knuble. However, he will probably be pricier than guerin.
Matt Bodenschatz
Jun 22, 12:14 PM
@Bag, a one-year deal for Guerin would be ideal. Two years obviously becomes more risky, but still isn’t shouldn’t be a deal breaker. I’d prefer to get Fedotenko back for two years rather than one. He’s a quality winger at a reasonable price.
I’d be careful when reading Rossi — or any reporter who isn’t attributing his insight to someone specifically. Rossi is known to offer his opinion weaved into a news story, thus making it seem as though it is fact. He very well may be right on all accounts. He also could be speculating like the rest of us.
@Blue, Knuble interests me, as well. He’d be my backup plan if Guerin moves on.
Dabich
Jun 22, 12:19 PM
Pucks, dang, why is it we think we don’t need Scuderi? Do you think he isn’t worth a raise, or do you think he will command more? I’ve watched this guy for the past years, and when we were struggling, I could SEE how well he played stay at home defense. He is a hard worker. I really think letting him go is a huge mistake. Can anyone explain this to me logically?
TheOneAndOnlySurge
Jun 22, 12:28 PM
@Dabich, I’m with you man. The only breaker is salary. The Pens just smiply can’t afford him if he wants market value. Like Malone, he deserves a nice pay day and that can’t happen here.
bag o' pucks
Jun 22, 12:31 PM
@Matt, I’m aware of Rossi’s reporting habits, just making mention. I don’t like to mention something I read elsewhere like it was my idea. Credit where credit is due, both good and bad.
@Dabs, I had a front seat on the “Scuds is a priority” bandwagon as recently as last Friday. But things I’m reading, and I know it’s all just conjecture (and most of it BS at that), his price is just going to be too high for the Pens to afford.
If he goes out and gets a $3.5M/yr offer, and even gives the Pens a so-called “hometown discount” of $3.25M, they still couldn’t fit him in their cap. It’s just too much and would require the Pens make more than one deal to accomodate his salary, and then they’d have to fill those roster holes, etc.
Trust me, I’d very much prefer to retain Scuderi, I just don’t think it’s feasible from a cap standpoint. So, I’ve already assumed he’s gone and started looking at other holes in the lineup the Pens need to fill.
@Matt. I neglected to mention a notable comp in regards to Guerin. Keith Tkachuk signed with the Blues for one year at $2.15M. Last season Tkachuk scored 25-24-49. Guerin had 21-27-48. Same ballpark.
Pens1967
Jun 22, 12:36 PM
Matt, not to belabor the point about Dupuis, but until he was moved up to Malkin’s wing late in the year, Max Talbot, too was a 4th liner making over 1M.
As for Guerin, I personally think a 1 year deal is the best fit for the Pens. If he doesn’t end up back in Pgh, I would not be surprised to see him go back to NJ.
As for Scuds, he knew his role and did it well, but the kind of defenseman he is, isn’t that hard to find.
henkegbgskea
Jun 22, 12:58 PM
Hey all!
=)
i am back with my questions.
Just read an article Tsn article about pens.
They think we should go after Knuble,Cole or Sullivan if we cant sign
Guerin, Fedotenko,Adams,Zigomanis, Sykora and Satan.
if thats the case i am looking and hoping for Feds, Cole, dont know about the other two.
I believe its better to give Tangradi or Caputi a real chance….
but hey i can be wrong wont be the first time….
Maybe Dustin Jeffrey on a fourth line…?=)
=)
Defenceman they believe we cant resign Scuderi …. ?
well heres hoping better we can better giving him big money then Guerin …just thinking out loud sorry !!
They are talking about Zanon,Semenov Koistinen and so on… well i dont know maybe Zanon or Koistinen….
what about drafting then ?
Theres a lot of good swedish guys this year … =)
heres hoping pens draft a player from my hometown:
David Rundblad,Tim Erixon ,Martin Lundberg or Mattias Lindstrom bye for now …
TheOneAndOnlySurge
Jun 22, 01:02 PM
@Pens1967, Talbot was not making over 1mil this last season. He just signed a new contract last summer that was for 2 years and a cap hit of 1.05mil but that doesn’t start till this season. Either way 1.4 vs 1.05 is a major difference. Thats about half the salary of a normal 4th liner.
Matt Bodenschatz
Jun 22, 01:04 PM
@Dabich, I think very few would be happy if Scuderi left. He should be a priority, and I’m sure Shero has him pegged as such. The problem, though, as Bag pointed out, is that he very well may receive upwards of $3 million through free agency. The Pens likely can’t afford more than, say, $2.5 million — and even that is going to make filling out the roster difficult.
@Bag, I think Tkachuk’s signing is good news for the Penguins with regard to Guerin. Very good news.
@Pens, as Surge said, Talbot’s new contract kicks in this year, and even so, he’ll be making slightly over my “peak” amount for a fourth liner. Talbot has since moved up, while Dupuis has since moved down.
If you’re paying someone that much, he needs to log minutes proportionate to his salary AND contribute. And let’s not forget, the cap situation in the past hasn’t been as dire as it will be in the coming years.
And, as a preemptive strike to the inevitable question, yes, I think Staal is perfectly fine as a $4 million third line center, as he logs the third most icetime among forwards and plays both the power play and penalty kill.
bag o' pucks
Jun 22, 01:22 PM
Talbot’s cap number these past two seasons was $.675. Excellent value. And, frankly, he’s still excellent value at $1.05 (over the next two). Some games he will play on a so-called fourth line, but unlike Dupuis, Max will always be one of the top four PK forwards (w/ Staal, Cooke, and Zigo/Adams last season). And Max will also take top-six shifts in the event of injury or just to spark a line. He’s probably the most versatile forward the Pens have. Even with those “bad hands” haha.
Matt Bodenschatz
Jun 22, 02:00 PM
@Henke, welcome back! Where have you been?
I think the top priority for Shero is retaining his own. If that fails, he may target a Steve Sullivan or Mike Knuble, but don’t expect anything other than older and/or underachieving players. If Adams goes — which seems likely if he is seeking a multi-year deal — Dustin Jeffrey seems ideal to fill the void, though he’d have to shift to wing to make room for Zigomanis, assuming Zigomanis re-signs.
If Scuderi doesn’t re-sign, I would think Shero will try to lock up Gill with intentions of him splitting time with Lovejoy as the team’s sixth defenseman. They also may opt to let Gill go and bring in someone like those you mentioned, but anyone who is brought in likely will know he is competing with Lovejoy for icetime.
bag o' pucks
Jun 22, 02:10 PM
Ideally, Guerin at one, possibly two years; Tenk at two years (provided he moves to the right side); Pesonen at one year (gives him a shot on Geno’s LW, more confidence in Tenk moving to RW), and that would round out the top six (in pencil, mind you). Staal’s line remains intact. Talbot slides in with Zigo and Godard, add another 4th line RW Adams-type to split time with Gods when necessary.
On the blue-line: Gonch, Orpik, Letang, Eaton, and Gogo are the established top five, as Matt eluded to. Lovejoy and add another d-man as 6/7’s.
Fleury’s the concrete #1. All Shero has to do is qualify Curry and he’s locked into a one-year, two-way deal with a $.55 cap hit in the N. A perfect one-year, two-way deal because it’s unknown if he can handle the job, just yet, even though everyone’s confident in him. He’d still be RFA after that deal, anyway.
We’ll see how it all works out.
Moq
Jun 22, 04:05 PM
Signing Guerin, Fedotenko and Pesonen would probably put us very close to $55M without a 7th defenceman and room for call-ups. That’s without Dupuis and dependent on the actual salaries paid, of course. I think Pesonen only gets a call if Fedotenko isn’t re-signed. Even without Pesonen it’ll be a tight fit.
The more I think about it, I would only try to sign Guerin if Fedotenko wasn’t feasible. If Guerin signs and Fedotenko doesn’t, Malkin will have his work cut out for him by carrying the likes of Talbot, Kennedy, Dupuis, and perhaps Pesonen, on his wings. A Fedotenko signing would at least spread the burden. That’s assuming that Staal won’t be tried at wing.
Everything hinges on the salary cap number, I can barely wait for the announcement.
Matt Bodenschatz
Jun 22, 05:14 PM
@Tom, Gonchar wasn’t brought back from shoulder surgery too soon. He was right on his timeline. His shoulder is fine, as evidenced by his 19 points in the first 24 games back.
His knee may keep him out for a short period of time, but there has been no word from the team indicating the injury is so serious he’ll miss significant time. There’s no reason to assume that will be the case.
If you honestly think the Penguins will play three rookies and a 22-year-old Letang on defense at the same time, you’re crazy and living in a dream world. The Penguins are in win-now mode. This would not jive with such a philosophy, and quite frankly, Shero won’t do it — as indicated by his track record of patience with young players.
Lovejoy is the only defenseman currently with WBS who will be on the roster to start next year (excluding Goligoski). I would put money on it. Forget about Mormina. He’s not going to be signed to play for the NHL Penguins after playing a full season with an AHL-only contract. He may have had a good season, but at age 27, I highly doubt Shero is looking at him as a legitimate option for anything other than minor league experience and/or emergency call-up duty.
Again, look at Shero’s track record. He won’t be loading the roster with rookies. And you can cite cap issues all you want, but he’ll make it work through small, affordable contracts — just as he has done the past two seasons.
albert
Jun 22, 05:31 PM
@Pucks — Good point on the Tkachuk comparable.
“n. Keith Tkachuk signed with the Blues for one year at $2.15M. Last season Tkachuk scored 25-24-49. Guerin had 21-27-48. Same ballpark.”
Tkachuk scored more goals and is a bit younger, so you’d think Guerin ought to be had for less than $2.15.
Interestly, Tenk’s #s were comparable to both. He only played 65 games, but pro-rating out to 79 games (like Tkachuk) yields 20 goals and 47 pts. — LESS than BOTH Tkachuk and Guerin in goals AND total points.
Hmmmm.
albert
Jun 22, 05:36 PM
Why all the Pesonen love?
When he was up he looked s-l-o-w, lacked physicality, didn’t wow w/ his passing, didn’t score, and was a defensive liability.
albert
Jun 22, 05:39 PM
i agree w/ Matt on the D.
No way in heck the Pens have that many rookies up.
Matt Bodenschatz
Jun 22, 05:50 PM
@Albert, I think many (myself included) are hopefully his game will translate better to top-line duty rather than emergency ictime on the third or fourth line.
@Tom, promotions must be earned. You don’t just promote the entire farm for the heck of it. At this point, I can think of two players who I am confident will be promoted: Lovejoy and Curry. Tangradi, Caputi and Jeffrey have a chance. The rest are slim-to-none. Mormina very well may surprise me. If he does, I’ll gladly admit I was wrong. Heck, I was wrong about Scuderi a few years back — just ask Dabich. But, if I am right — and I am using Shero’s track record and plenty of precedence to come to this conclusion — I hope you would admit you were wrong, as well.
bag o' pucks
Jun 22, 06:00 PM
@Tom. I believe that all of those players will retire before playing in the NFL. Sorry, couldn’t resist.
@Albert. I think we’re, myself included, hopeful that Pesonen can hack it as a contributor because he’d be cheap. He wants a one-way deal so he can likely be had for less than his $850K cap hit of last year, which he had on an entry-level deal. It’s not love. It’s probably closer to desperation, haha. If he’s a diamond in rough, or even a ruby or something, and can chip in 15-20 goals for the neighborhood of $650K, that would be satisfactory, and pretty good value.
Plus, if Pes stumbles a bit, Talbot has proven he can man that wing. I don’t think Talbot is an 82 game top six, but it’s a viable option until Pes gets his feet wet.
And I also agree on Tenk. I think if he wants a two-year deal, it’s for no more than $2.25M/per, same as he got last year. That false 3-yr, $7.2M rumor stank from the get-go. To start, I couldn’t imagine Shero offering him three years, and a raise, too? No dice.
@Matt. Again with this… Agreed, Lovejoy and Curry, that’s it for now. I think Caputi’s exclusion from the Black Aces may have (and only possibly) been partially residual from the hijinks that got him demoted to Wheeling at one point. Nonetheless, Caputi and Jeffrey were good last year. But that’s it. Good. Not great by any measure. If the Pens sign Zigo, which they hopefully will, there really isn’t room for Jeffrey in the middle right now. Another fall in WB/S would do them both good. As well as all of the rookies.
DaBich
Jun 22, 06:11 PM
Albert, i don’t think Pesonen was given enough of a chance to show what he had, heck, he didn’t even have time to get comfortable on the ice. I’d still like to see what he DOES have. I understand he was more than good in the AHL.
I’d hate to see us lose Scuds for the same reason we lost Malone, but look how that worked out…somehow it DID work out because Shero was able to make something work.
I suppose we have to trust in Shero, and so far so good!
Hi Henke, welcome back :)
DaBich
Jun 22, 06:15 PM
At Pucks, I was gonna, but I’m glad YOU did LOL!
Uhh..Tom…NFL...NHL...get it ;)
Matt, yes indeed, we did have many a conversation on Scuds :)
You’re man enough to admit it, let’s see how else is man enough when the time comes…
DaBich
Jun 22, 06:23 PM
LOL Tom, we just had to pull your leg ;)
bag o' pucks
Jun 22, 06:24 PM
I’m shameless, aren’t I, Dabs? XD Picking on a type even though just today I’ve already typed Ovechkin as Ovechking (the horror); and used a ‘their’ where I should have used ‘they’re’, an absolute pet peeve of mine. I went to a grate skool…
DaBich
Jun 22, 06:27 PM
You guys are killing me. I went to parochial school for eight years and I was “teacher’s pet.”
Shameless you are! Now, go and sit in the corner with the dunce cap!
bag o' pucks
Jun 22, 06:36 PM
And I just typed “type” instead of “typo”. Man, I am totally still paying for the weekend, haha. Quitting while I’m well behind…
@Tom. Now, Thomas, be honest. You don’t talk about promoting only Lovejoy, Curry & Mormina. Your projected lineups also have Tangradi, Zabotel, Caputi & Jeffrey in them, as well, and you’re saying “Let the kids play!” If you mean play golf in April, that lineup would suffice. Beyond Lovejoy and Curry, the kids should be in WB/S, their progress carefully monitored, and the subject of promotions revisited prior to the trade deadline. Contracts for guys like Zigo will be less of a cap hit than those of Tangradi, Zabotel & Caputi, anyway.
albert
Jun 22, 06:50 PM
I just read this entire thread. I think I figured it out.
“Tom” is really Mrs. Mormina.
Moq
Jun 22, 07:07 PM
It’s also important to acknowledge that not every single draft pick currently residing with the WBS will play in the NHL. Though it would be nice to see Tangradi, CPZ, Caputi, Pesonen, Lovejoy, Curry, Letestu, Johnson, Mormina, Strait, Grant, Sneep, etc. make the roster during the next 3-4 seasons, some will amount to nothing but good or even excellent players at the AHL level.
They need to have a NHL suitable game as well as displaying superior skill/effort and consistancy at the AHL level before getting the opportunity. Beyond talents like Crosby there are few shortcuts available for the likes of Caputi and Tangradi. I’m as impatient as the next guy, but development cannot be rushed. If they’re good enough they’ll get the chance eventually.
Matt Bodenschatz
Jun 22, 08:33 PM
@Dabich, good comparison. Losing Malone was rough, but the Penguins managed. If Scuderi goes, they’ll continue to manage. It won’t be fun losing another great player, but the team will sruvive.
@Tom, the point remains. If the Penguins have Goligoski, Lovejoy and Mormina on defense, three of their seven defenders are rookies. Stanley Cup Championship teams don’t utilize three rookies on defense and expect to repeat. And, contrary to your beliefs, there will be experienced veterans out there willing to be signed at very affordable contracts — possibly less than $1 million per year.
But, as Bag points out, you’ve consistently vouched for other rookies, namely Caputi, Tangradi and Jeffrey, so let’s not let’s not pretend Lovejoy, Mormina and Curry are the only ones you have discussed. And, as Bags also pointed out, there is no need to rush players and stunt their development, an aspect of premature promotions you consistently overlook and/or ignore.
@Albert, Tom is a huge fan of “young” players, or maybe more specifically, inexperienced players. There’s nothing wrong with that, but sometimes he follows a player so closely he gets attached and won’t let go.
@Moq, exactly. Being an AHL star often does not translate to NHL success. There are finer points to the game than simply putting up goals and assists and posting a good plus/minus. Hockey sense, speed, quickness, discipline are all things that are at an entirely different level in the NHL as compared to the AHL. That’s why some AHL snipers, such as Chris Minard, just can’t parlay minor league success into NHL success. The same goes for defensive rocks, such as Alain Nasreddine, who are ultra-shutdown defenders in the AHL, but press box perennials in the NHL. And you add a solid point I touched on above. Development cannot and should not be rushed, regardless of the current NHL situation and salary cap situation. Let the young guys play until they have proven themselves physically and mentally ready to compete at the next level. Early promotions kill careers. I’d rather wait and have these prospects enter the NHL at age 22-23 and be ready than force them in at age 20-21 when they aren’t.
@Tom, again. It is entirely possible and quite likely one or several of Tangradi, Caputi, CPZ, and Jeffrey will make it to the NHL and stick before the 2009-10 season is over. Few are arguing that. But if you honestly believe all of them — and Lovejoy, Mormina, Curry and Goligoski — will finish the season in the NHL, you’re nuts. I’m sorry, but it’s true. Think about that. That’s eight rookies on a team of 23 players. That’s more than one/third. Kiss the playoffs, let alone the Cup, goodbye. This would be a recipe for disaster.
You keep rehashing the exact same things: the Penguins can’t afford to keep their current roster. You’re right. No one argues this. But where you stray from common logic is that you think that all roster holes must be filled by organizational talent. Shero has no history of making such bold roster moves and I am so sure he won’t stray from his pattern that I would put money on it.
Last year you sang the exact same tune: the Penguins won’t be able to ice a roster without a slew of rookies. Well, they did, and they won the Cup.
bag o' pucks
Jun 22, 09:30 PM
I think there’s absolutely no doubt that some of those kids will “start” before the season is out. But it will be in a “cup of coffee” situation, filling in for an injured regular. One thing that is a virtual guarantee: injuries will happen. That’s when you want to give kids a sniff of the big league. I’m a believer that a player has to be dominant at the AHL level before being ready for full time NHL work. Lovejoy was damn near dominant last season and has the tools, skating, hockey sense, etc. Curry may well be an able backup to Fleury. As much as I like Caputi and Jeffrey, both were good, even really good at times, but neither suggested dominance at any time. And Lovejoy & Curry are both 25 years old, their development better be ahead of 20-yr old rookies. I see no need for any of the other youngsters we’ve discussed to be a regular in Pittsburgh.
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