Trading Players To Create Cap Space
Matt Bodenschatz | Pittsburgh Penguins
Jul 7, 11:19 AM | Hype this story!
In recent weeks, a hot topic among Pittsburgh Penguins fans has been a focus on trading one or several players currently on the roster to free up cap space for the acquisition of others.
In theory, this is a logical way to improve a team, but would it really logical?
The common names thrown out have been Pascal Dupuis, because of his $1.4 million salary per season for two more years; Eric Godard, because of the newly-signed big man Mike Rupp; and Mark Eaton, because he’s the least valuable defenseman on the blueline.
General manager Ray Shero had the following to say on June 26:
“We’re not looking to trade anybody,” Shero said to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. According to the paper, he added “that he is not interested in making a trade simply to free salary-cap space.”
Shero has been rather candid with the media over his years in Pittsburgh, something most Penguin fans still are adjusting to after the tight-lipped tenure of Craig Patrick. But Shero’s track record indicates he speaks the truth when interviewed.
In other words, don’t count on a trade designed specifically to create cap space.
But, assuming Shero was looking to make a salary dump, there are a slew of reasons it would make little sense. I’ll break them down by player.
Pascal Dupuis
Despite his $1.4 million salary, Dupuis is a versatile player capable of playing on all four lines and on the penalty kill. He’s the type of player who has little value to non-playoff teams and immense value to playoff teams. Trading him to free up cap space for a one trick pony like Ales Kotalic, Petr Sykora, or Max Afinogenov just isn’t a sound business plan. It also would be unwise to trade him to bring in a higher caliber defenseman, as that defender will likely require a multi-year contract worth more than $2 million per season, terms the Penguins would be hard-pressed to offer, considering the salary cap could drop significantly in one year.
Eric Godard
“Although Rupp’s acquisition might seem to make enforcer Eric Godard expandable, Shero was adamant that he does not share that perspective. He added that he has not looked into the possibility of trading Godard and has no plans to do so.” — July 2 PG article. Godard, not his teammates, risks injury by fighting; and Godard, not his teammates, serves fighting majors in the penalty box. The addition of Rupp was designed to add another element of physicality to a team that plays in the rough neighborhood known as the Atlantic Division. It was not designed to relieve Godard of his duties.
Mark Eaton
The Penguins already lost their two best defensive defenseman. Losing their third best isn’t a recipe for success. Eaton, at $2 million, is good value for a solid positional, shot blocking defenseman who also skates well, passes well, and joins the rush well. Few players who cost more, yet remain reasonably priced, would provide similar bang for the buck.
Like many, I’ve been known to suggest a trade to free up cap space to bring in a free agent. But it’s that “grass is greener” mentality that we should be happy Shero does not have.
With not even a month removed from the Stanley Cup Championship, the last thing the Penguins need is change.
Comments
Colin44
Jul 7, 12:22 PM
The penguins would be insane to trade Eaton. In all likelihood he’ll play on the top PK pairing and he proved he can be an occasional contributor on offense under Bylsma. And as you said his cap hit is a very good value for what he provides.
bag o' pucks
Jul 7, 12:29 PM
The Pens shouldn’t deal anyone. The only guy I thought the Pens could deal was Dupuis, but that’s no longer an issue with the injury to Talbot. The Pens need to add a d-man, an inexpensive d-man (c’mon, McKee, sign on the dotted line, already). Finish low cap# deals with Lovejoy and Curry and the Pens will likely be done for the summer.
Stilly
Jul 7, 12:42 PM
Honestly I don’t think any of those guys have enough value to make sense to trade them. Unless you’re trading for picks or prospects you’re not going to get a good enough return. If you’re trading for picks/prospects you’re indicating that there are AHL guys ready to step up, and I don’t know there’s much truth to that. There is a lot of talk about Luca Caputi, but I don’t think he’s going to make the club this year. Hell he spent time in Wheeling last season.
Matt Bodenschatz
Jul 7, 12:44 PM
@Bag, all indications are that one more addition will be made: a veteran goalie to push Curry for the backup job. It makes sense. If Fleury happens to go down with an injury, I don’t think too many would be comfortable with a Curry/Theissen tandem in the NHL. Bringing in an affordable veteran to compete with Curry, as they did two years ago by bringing in Ty Conklin, would give them positional depth within the organization, and would give them an option should Curry not earn the backup role or should Fleury fall to injury.
Matt Bodenschatz
Jul 7, 12:54 PM
@Stilly, the big reason many mentioned trades was to clear cap space. In other words, the idea was to get draft picks or prospects, not roster players, back. And the reason they wanted cap space is not for current prospects, but rather to sign free agents.
To put it simply, many fans called for trades of current roster players they deemed expendable in order to free up cap space so the Penguins could add guys like Kovalev, Beauchemmin, etc.
TheOneAndOnlySurge
Jul 7, 01:01 PM
@Stilly, it should also be mentioned that Caputi was sent to the ECHL because of breaking team rules and not because of his on ice play.
Alex Kirshner
Jul 7, 01:10 PM
Trading Dupuis would enable the Pens to sign a quality fifth defenseman. I think it would be prudent to get him out for a draft pick, or possibly as part of a package to get a defenseman
Moq
Jul 7, 01:34 PM
Trading Dupuis would be the most beneficial option, because it’ll allow us to find a cheaper alternative to his role either from the minors or through free agency, thereby adding to cap room available. It’ll probably remove maneuverability from the roster, because Dupuis can be used sparingly on top lines without being a liability. Replacing him with a more dedicated fourth line grinder may reduce flexibility. All things considered, I don’t Shero is in any haste to trade him which I think is acceptable.
Eaton may have looked like an exorbitant salary in a tight budget, but he has recovered from his injuries and improved gradually. Getting someone better at a lower salary appears less likely, and adds unnecessary uncertainty to a defence that will undergo changes.
I don’t like players like Godard, and they shouldn’t belong in a league like the NHL, theoretically. Reality remains different, unfortunately, and his meagre abilities ensures him a place on the roster. Fortunately, his salary doesn’t break the budget.
bag o' pucks
Jul 7, 01:42 PM
@Stilly. Caputi spent time in Wheeling for an underaged drinking incident, the same incident that got D’Aversa demoted (also for three games) and Richmond traded.
@Matt. Agreed, but that vet goalie position will have to be had at a rate in the neighborhood of $550K. So, it’s important, but we’re certainly not going to see any world-beaters added. Marc Denis, maybe.
@Alex, Moq. I’m skeptical of Dupuis’ trade value. A $1.4M bottom-six forward can’t be on many teams’ wish lists, if any at all, and he’s proven conclusively that he is not a top-six guy or even a middler. He’s only used as such in Pittsburgh because of their salary obligations at center. Who else needs him? Something else would have to be included in the deal. Not out of the question, but it changes the discussion. And why help the Stanley Cup Champs out of a cap bind? The more tied up Pittsburgh, Detroit, and Chicago are, the better chances for everyone else.
I wouldn’t object to dealing Dupuis, but I don’t see it happening without a good prospect or pick involved, and I’m wary of that.
SprJudd
Jul 7, 02:01 PM
The thing about Dupuis is that he’s not a top-6 forward in Pittsburgh, but he could be on another team. Let’s face it, he doesn’t have the hands to finish passes from Sid or Geno too often, but he has the wheels to keep up with them. If you look around the league and see the makeup of the top 2 lines of many teams, you’ll see how spoiled we Penguins fans are with the talent we have. Our 3rd line is better than the 2nd line of many NHL teams. Also, Dupuis was a 20-goal scorer in Jacques Lemaire’s defense-all-the-time system in Minnesota, so it isn’t as though the guy can’t score.
The reason I’m in favor of trading a guy like Dupuis is because he’s too expensive for what he offers the Penguins. However, his price could be downright reasonable (or even a bargain) for some other teams in the NHL. But now that Max Talbot is out for the first (and maybe second) month of the upcoming season, I certainly don’t expect Dupuis to be moved until after the return of Max – if at all.
Moq
Jul 7, 02:10 PM
@Pucks. Dupuis should be capable of performing a third line checking role on quite a few teams, but a lot of players out there can perform that task. Teams may have other priorities at the moment, eg. scoring roles and defence first, which limits his current trade value. I think it’s very difficult to gauge interest with any kind of accuracy. I do tend to think that he’ll be difficult to move on his own.
To be clear, I’m not a member of the “Dupuis has to be moved now!” club.
SprJudd
Jul 7, 02:11 PM
I wouldn’t move Eric Godard because, whether you like him or not, he’s effective in filling his role. I wouldn’t move Mark Eaton either because he’s defensively reliable, can chip in some offense on occasion, and he has a reasonable salary for a top 4 defender (which I’m thinking he’ll be with the loss of Scuderi and Gill). I won’t be heartbroken if either of those guys is traded, but I don’t think it should be done merely to create cap room – only if it makes the team better.
That being said, would trading Dupuis give a guy like Dustin Jeffrey the chance to play in Max Talbot’s absence? Jeffrey has wheels, can play in all situations, and has shown a willingness to put the puck on net in his brief time in the NHL. If we can get younger, cheaper, and potentially better, I say do it. But if Ray Shero isn’t convinced doing that will benefit the team, then leave it alone. One thing Ray Shero has earned (in addition to the Division title, two Eastern Conference Championships, and a Stanley Cup Championship) is my belief that he knows what he’s doing. And really, what more does he need than that?
bag o' pucks
Jul 7, 02:30 PM
@Sprjudd. Yes, Dupuis did score 20 with Minn, but he did so while skating on a line with Marian Gaborik. Other than that one season, he’s not gotten more than 15. I’d guestimate that his 20-goal season is viewed as the exception, not the rule.
SprJudd
Jul 7, 02:46 PM
@Pucks – I’m not suggesting Dupuis is a goal-scoring machine just waiting to get his big chance. All I’m saying is that he could provide an upgrade for some teams. For instance, the Rangers are planning on having Brandon Dubinsky center Marian Gaborik’s line because they don’t feel they have a legit #1 center on their team (apparently they aren’t as high on Chris Drury as his salary would indicate). Do you really see Dubinsky being a top 9 forward in Pittsburgh – let alone a top 6? And the Rangers were a playoff team last season.
My suggestion isn’t that every other team in the NHL should be lucky to have Pascal Dupuis – just that we should feel lucky Pascal Dupuis is widely viewed as little more than a spare part in Pittsburgh. And while I used the 20-goal season to illustrate that he has the potential to be an upgrade for some teams, I do agree that was an anomaly in his career.
JIM
Jul 7, 04:49 PM
“Dupuis is a versatile player capable of playing on all four lines” Are you kidding me? He is a third line player at best.
Godard – $750,000 for a guy who plays four minutes and fights, with no other skills at all. Did he see ice time in the playoffs?...of course not.
I’d rather have Boucher than Eaton; he blacks more shots, hits more, and scores more.
How about freeing up some money to extend Matt Cooke?
Colin44
Jul 7, 05:10 PM
@ Jim—Boucher may have more offensive skill than Eaton, but he is not the defender Eaton is. Eaton definitely is the better shot-blocker considering when he is fully healthy he is usually at or near the top of the league in terms of blocked shots and although Boucher does hit more he is still is not some fierce hitter. Boucher is also older and slower than Eaton.
SprJudd
Jul 7, 05:13 PM
@Jim – If you think Godard is too expensive at $750k, what do you think of Donald Brashear’s $1.4M deal with the New York Rangers? Like him or not, Eric Godard fills his role effectively – and comes pretty cheap for a top-notch NHL enforcer. Don’t believe me? Look at the contracts for Donald Brashear, Colton Orr, Chris Neil, and Georges Laraque. All of those guys make anywhere from $250K to $1.25M more per year and are arguably less effective in filling their roles.
With regards to Eaton and Boucher, I’ll stick with Eaton in the lineup. Presumably so would all 30 NHL GM’s considering Phillipe Boucher is still a UFA right now. Mark Eaton is younger, faster, and less expensive than Phillipe Boucher ($2M for Eaton, $2.5M for Boucher last season). While physicality is sorely lacking from Eaton’s game (something his frame isn’t really built for), I believe he blocks more shots on average than Phillipe Boucher. None of this is to denigrate the job Boucher did for the Pens last season, but the fact is that Mark Eaton played every playoff game while Boucher spent most nights wearing a suit and watching from the stands.
Regarding Matt Cooke, he still has 2 more years remaining on his deal if I recall correctly. If that’s the case, the Pens cannot even approach him about an extension until 12noon on July 1, 2010.
mbizzle
Jul 7, 05:54 PM
@ Jim,
This point has already been argued buddy.
First of all Dupuis played the last quarter of last season and the playoffs on the 1st line with Hossa and Crosby if you remember. He is a very versatile player because he can play on all 4 lines and plays great defensively and has good speed to throw hits around/cause turnovers.
You need Godard because he’s one of the best at what he does. It’s not about the playoffs, it’s about the 82 games before the playoffs. The point was made that the Pens play in a very physical/nasty Atlantic division, as well as physical conference. Who is going to stand up when Sid and Geno get cheapshotted by Pronger/Carcillo??? Godard and Rupp hopefully. Without Godard, Rupp can’t take on Carcillo, Cote, Laperierre, Pronger, Asham, Hartnell, etc. by himself. Avery/Brashear, Orr/Exelby/Komi/Mayers, Laraque/Lappiere, Lucic/Ward/Thornton/Chara, and the list goes on…
It’s not a question of whether Godard can play in the playoffs or not, he can’t that’s obvious. Neither can Mcgrattan, Cote, etc. But there are 6.5 months to play before the 2 month marathon known as the playoffs. If you didn’t notice, but when teams get down 2-0, 3-0 they don’t take liberties on players in the playoffs. Unless you’re the Philly Flyers of course, they’re the exception, but that’s why they’ll continue to lose and lose and lose. In the regular season, when teams get down 3-0, 4-0 to the Pens which WILL happen, the Mitch Fritz’s of the world and all those other bums will take liberties and all we have to stand up is Mike Rupp, you need Godard, he’s a heavyweight.
The Pens have enough depth in their farm system and their top 3 lines are strong enough that you don’t need to worry about your 4th line so much anyways. Our top 3 are the strongest in the league in terms of a 1-2-3 punch. They’re not the strongest individually necessarily, but in terms of what they bring it’s tough to stop them.
Boucher is NOT better than Eaton. He’s older and yes he has better off. skills than Eaton, but Eaton scored some big goals in the Philly series and he “blacks” more shots than Boucher. Eaton is your poor man’s Rob Scuderi, and many feel he’ll have a breakout season and get noticed this season and he had a terrific playoffs/reg. season.
Freeing up money to extend matt cooke?!?!?!? LOL....you rip on Dupuis, and you talk about Matt Cooke as if he’s the next coming of Wayne Gretzky. I love Cooke and he’s a very important player, but Shero has a lot more important things to worry about than Cooke’s contract hahaha. Aka extending Gonchar and Letang, getting a defenseman, backup goalie possibly, etc., etc.
Best.
bag o' pucks
Jul 7, 06:36 PM
Philly just signed Pronger to a seven-year extension worth $35M that includes a no movement clause. Hahaha, what a bunch of morons.
mbizzle
Jul 7, 08:07 PM
@ Bag O,
I mean the guy’s play doesn’t seem to be getting any worse, and he’ll retire earlier than 7 yrs from now. He joked in the presser he doesn’t want to play as long as Chelios, but he might be in Philly for another 5 yrs realistically, maybe 4. If his play starts getting any worse, then it’ll be a joke for sure.
The real reason their management is terrible is b.c of the guys they get for their 3rd/4th lines. GM Holmgren talks about getting 2 pairs of defense to stop Sid AND Geno, what about our 3rd line. Powe, Asham, Laperriere, Carcillo are gonna match the 3rd line LOL??? They load up with all these penalty minute bums who have very limited skill. The Carcillo trade was awful but I guess they needed to clear some cap. But why in god’s name do they need him? Knuble/Lupul are now gone, there’s a lot of pressure on Giroux to perform well on the 2nd line.
As important as the top 2 lines are, the 3rd/4th lines are the difference in winning cups or not winning sometimes. Look at the Pens last year and this year. Last year 3rd line: staal/kennedy/ruutu. Ruutu is a worse player than Cooke. Last year 4th: Roberts Laraque Hall. Laraque can’t skate or do anything effective to save his life, Roberts can play 3 shifts a game before dying. Our 3rd and 4th lines this year could all cycle the puck, all skate, and do the little things to grind down opposing defenses and eat time away from the clock.
Sorry I went off on a tangent there.
bag o' pucks
Jul 7, 10:21 PM
I agree that the Carcillo deal was horrible. I could see maybe Upshall for Carcillo straight up. But Philly throws in a second rounder? And now two firsts and a third, plus their top defensive prospect for a 35-yr old? The franchise is a joke.
KG
Jul 7, 11:10 PM
Godard I wouldn’t move. His cap hit is minimal, and he is a necessary component to the team in the regular season. Especially with Pronger and Brashear in the division now. They brought Rupp in to help out Godard, not replace him.
I would move Dupuis for a pick if I could. I still think their are more viable options out there on free agency for what this team needs. How much could Kotalik be looking for? what about Bertuzzi etc.? Their are 5 better versions of Dupuis on this team already, making less money…He is no longer needed…
mbizzle
Jul 8, 07:58 AM
Bag O,
Wow they threw in a 2nd rounder in the Carcillo deal? Well that’s just terrible.
Then again they have made some great trades with teams who were desperate to make the playoffs. Alexei Zhitnik for Braydon Coburn. Atlanta somehow got talked into trading one of their best young D-men for a veteran to basically play the PP for them.
Then they traded Peter Forsberg (another vet. on the downside of his career) for Parent, Upshall, and a 2nd round pick. Then they acquire the rights for Hartnell/Timonen and sent that 2nd round pick back to Nashville. And I thought the Pitkanen trade for Lupul was also a good one. As Lupul ended up having a couple 20 goal seasons and he’s still young. Pitkanen played well against the Pens in the year the Flyers were awful, but we all know they can’t keep Euro players around for too long.
@KG, I agree that moving Dupuis wouldn’t be such a bad thing b.c it would give us some money to spend on a good D-men or something else. But few players are as versatile as Duper. We don’t really need a Bertuzzi or a Kotalik anymore. Now that Feds is signed and with Max injured we have plenty of guys who can step up. Jeffrey/Caputi/TK will all get their shots. Bertuzzi will only be useful in a 3rd/4th line role, there’s no room for him elsewhere and he’s getting old and not performing as well as he once did. I like the guys, but Kotalik and Bertuzzi aren’t players to die for. We have enough guys who can step up and our 4th line is deep already. You want Kotalik/Bertuzzi playing the 4th line? Kotalik isn’t a 4th line player and we have better/younger options than Bertuzzi who I’d rather see play.
Matt Bodenschatz
Jul 8, 11:19 AM
@Jim, Dupuis has played on the first line and did well, despite the notion many have that all first liners have to be snipers. He’s not an ideal top-line winger, but he can fill in nicely in a defensive role when needed. With so many big contracts and such little cap space, get used to 3rd/4th liners playing on scoring line in Pittsburgh.
Regarding Godard and Boucher, it’s interesting that lack of icetime is a reason why one should be traded, in your opinion, while lack of icetime by another means nothing. If we’re using icetime as a gauge, neither should return.
@Pucks, the deal is one of those “under 35” deals that allows Pronger’s cap hit to be reduced by extending it’s life beyond the years he’ll likely play. In that sense, it was a smart signing. Problem is, they’ve tried the aging, physical defensemen route before — Gauthier, Hatcher, Rathje, and they even traded for Mclaren recently (before he failed a physical) — and it always backfired. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
@Mbizzle, Pronger, in my opinion, has lost a step. He’s not the guy he once was, in terms of talent. He’s still a cheapshot artist and as dirty of a player as they come, but the skills are on the downswing. At a $5 million cap hit, this could be a horrible signing for a team that is paper thin in goal.
I do agree with you, however, on the issue of their bottom lines. They have some nice players there. In fact, some of whom I wouldn’t mind having on the Pens’ roster. But the problem is that they have too much of the same thing: agitating, penalty-taking players who aren’t all that good of hockey players. They like the intimidation factor they think it brings, but the reality is, few teams are intimidated by them anymore, as most teams — including the Penguins — are starting to bulk up, thus evening the playing field.
@Pucks, the Carcillo/Upshall trade was a cap move — one that illustrates the predicaments the team gets itself into by making stupid roster moves…kind of like the Pronger signing. The Flyers are banking on a Cup within the next 2-3 years. What that haven’t learned, though, is that it takes goaltending to win, and their duo is garbage. They would have been better off working out a trade for Kari Lehtonen or Josh Harding that signing Emery and trading for Pronger — but in their eyes, goons win. Interestingly, they haven’t noticed that they haven’t won anything in years and years and years, all while playing goon hockey.
@KG, here’s the thing. Last year, we quickly saw how important NHL depth is when Whitney had surgery and Gonchar injured his shoulder. Imagine if the team didn’t have depth? Now, with Talbot out at least a month, we could be in line for a similar situation. Dupuis represents an internal option who has played top line minutes in the past. I honestly think it would be a huge mistake to trade Dupuis, a speedy, physical, defensive player to create cap space for a declining even-strength player such as Bertuzzi or an underachiever such as Kotalik. Dupuis brings it on every shift and is capable of adding offense. Kotalik had 20 goals, Bertuzzi had 15, and Dupuis had 12 goals. So is an additional 3-8 goals and a significant defensive and possibly character downgrade worth trading Dupuis? I don’t think so.
@Mbizzle, I am not so against moving Dupuis — or others, for that matter — that I wouldn’t consider it. But I’m not sure there is anyone left out there worth making the amount of money that would require Shero to clear cap space.
bag o' pucks
Jul 8, 11:29 AM
@Matt. I understand that some cap was saved by Philly in that deal, but it was negligible and not worth a second round pick, IMO. Unless I’m mistaken, the Flyers saved around $400K between the two players. I wouldn’t deal a second over $400K.
Matt Bodenschatz
Jul 8, 11:52 AM
@Pucks, I’m not 100 percent certain of the terms at the time, but I seem to recall Holmgren actually saying he needed to trade Upshall to get below the cap. I could be wrong there, but if that is the case, you can see why no one wanted to make a trade to help them unless there was a deal sweetener.
henkegbgskea
Jul 8, 11:59 AM
hi all !
well Matt i want a second line winger playiing on second line ….
=)))
anyways
my suggestions are when talbot are hurt:
Guerin,Crosby,Pesonen/Tangradi/Caputi
Kennedy Malkin, Kunitz
Cooke Staal Fedotenko
Adams/Conner Jeffrey Rupp/Conner
13 th Godard.
traded for a 4 th pick 2010 P dupuis.
Gonchar-Orpik
Letang-Eaton
McKee-Goligoski
Lovejoy/other UFA (2 way contract)/Guenin
Fleury
C.Sanford/J.Curry
i am getting killed for this ??
:(((
my point the pens have to do something…
if they want to compete.
release som cap space by trading Dupuis maybe even Godard not sure on that one..
so we can finally sign Mckee.
Matt Bodenschatz
Jul 8, 12:20 PM
@Henke, don’t we all!
Shero has all but said Pesonen won’t be with the Penguins next season and that Tangradi will spend the season in the AHL unless he absolutely plays his way into the lineup.
The idea of mixing the lines up after a Stanley Cup is a bit odd. One player has been removed from the equation, so it would seem logical to replace that one player without tampering with the other lines too much.
I don’t get the statements like: “the pens have to do something…if they want to compete.” This is the defending Cup champs who lost two defenseman permanently and a role player for a month or two. If Shero brings in a defenseman, the Penguins will be fine.
Shero already said he’s not trading anyone to clear cap space. And he is not trading Godard, who he named specifically as a player he wants on the roster. The only trades he makes will revolve around hockey decisions, not finance decisions.
I do, agree, though, that McKee would be a great addition — one that I truly believe will happen before long.
SprJudd
Jul 8, 12:26 PM
@Matt – Yes, Paul Holmgren did say he traded Upshall so that he could get under the cap. While Bag is right that it only got them about $400K-$500K in savings, that was enough to put them under the cap. However, Holmgren just screwed himself again with this Pronger extension. Because Chris Pronger will be 35 when the deal takes effect, it is an “Over 35” deal, and all 7 years will count against the salary cap regardless of when Pronger retires or suffers a career-ending injury. I am so happy to see Holmgren, Glen Sather, and Garth Snow as GM’s for teams in the Pens’ division. Now if only the Devils would fire Lou Lamorello.
@All – Per the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette today, Ray Shero will use an internal solution to fill Max Talbot’s role on Malkin’s wing. Something tells me Pascal Dupuis is that answer. However, I’d be more inclined to make the top 2 lines this:
Guerin – Crosby – Dupuis
Kunitz – Malkin – Fedotenko
I just don’t think it’s right that Sid gets both the big acquisitions while Geno gets whatever is left. I’m a “share the wealth” kinda guy when it comes to the talent they have on the wings.
Matt Bodenschatz
Jul 8, 12:45 PM
@Sprjudd, does the contract have to kick in prior to age 35 or be signed prior to age 35? I am not sure which is accurate.
re: the PG. Here’s the article Sprjudd was mentioning: Talbot’s fill-in will be internal. In it, Shero indicates he won’t seek an external solution for replacing Talbot, and that he’s pursuing a free agent to add to the defense, though he may resort to a trade for the same need.
I’d be more inclined to see this:
Kunitz-Crosby-Guerin
Fedtenko-Malkin-Caputi
See what Luca can do in an enhanced role. If he fills it well, he stays. If not, he returns to the AHL with a strong knowledge of what he needs to do to improve.
I get what you’re saying in terms of “what’s left,” but the difference is that Crosby has had much more difficulty meshing with linemates, while Malkin tends to elevate the games of anyone who flanks his wings. For a long time it was Malkin with the strong wingers and Crosby with the leftovers.
SprJudd
Jul 8, 12:54 PM
@Matt – Bill Daly has said this deal qualifies as an “Over 35” deal because Chris Pronger will be 35 when the extension kicks in, so I assume the contract has to begin before turning 35 in order to avoid this dubious classification. He still has one year left on his existing deal – a year that cannot be voided without a buyout – and he’s 34 now. He’ll turn 35 before 12 noon on July 1, 2010 (when the new deal kicks in), so it is an “Over 35” deal. The Flyers will have no way to get out from under the new Pronger deal unless they can trade him – but then what other team would want to be saddled with that deal until Chris Pronger is 42?
mbizzle
Jul 8, 01:22 PM
@ Matt,
I agree with your line combo’s. I think Caputi will definitely benefit from having Geno on his line and he’ll be able to get him some wide open looks. Teams will be very physical on Geno just like they were in the playoffs, and this will leave Feds open (like he was many a time) and Caputi.
Remember Bob Errey almost having an orgasm when Caputi scored his 1st NHL goal vs. Montreal? That was funny, but the goal was flukey. First I thought Godard scored but than it turned out it was Luca. He’s got great hands and good speed. If he’s bulked up a little since his call-up, he’ll be an interesting guy to watch. Some other FF guy mentioned putting Jeffrey on the 2nd line, that could be fun, he’s got great speed and plays physical, reminds me of Max Talbot from a couple years ago.
Duper is a very reliable player to have b.c of his great defense. If Geno is the disher and scorer, Feds is the sniper now, Duper can just do what he’s always done well and that’s hit and use his speed to create plays.
We shouldn’t be worried about the 2nd line winger. Geno will make most scrubs in our organization look pretty good. The Pens have constantly faced adversity the past two seasons, ironically they’ve made it to the finals in both. Injuries to stars: Sid, Fleury, Gonch, Whitney, etc. That says a lot about the character of the team. Sid getting injured mid-way thru game 7 was proof of that.
SprJudd
Jul 8, 01:43 PM
@Matt & MBizzle – I wouldn’t mind seeing Caputi suit up for Malkin’s wing while Talbot is out. However, by calling up Caputi, that still leaves Bylsma to decide who sits on a nightly basis. I think Caputi should play every day, but Dupuis is too expensive and versatile to sit, Godard and Rupp make the Pens physical and tough to play against, and Adams can play all 3 forward positions and kill penalties. Putting Dupuis on Malkin’s (or Sid’s) wing allows for Geno to be the scorer, Fedotenko to be the sniper, and Dupuis to be the defensive presence. And remember, Fedotenko’s scoring picked up once Talbot was put on the line to be the more defensive-minded forward.
@Matt – Yes, Geno has ended up with superior linemates more often than Sid, but that’s because Geno meshes with guys with more ease it seems. Let’s not forget, Petr Sykora was put on Malkin’s line when he didn’t work out with Sid first. Hossa was acquired to play with Sid, not Geno. Guerin and Kunitz were both added to play along with Sid, not Geno. So yes, Geno has shown a knack for meshing with just about all linemates and elevating the play of his linemates. But it sometimes appears to be more a curse for him than a blessing and leaves me feeling like Geno gets Sid’s hand-me-downs more than linemates of his own.
Dabich
Jul 8, 01:45 PM
It’s good to see most of you feel Dupuis is a fit on this team, because I certainly feel he is as well. His speed and defensive play make him a versatile plug in player. All the guys can’t be 20+ goal scorers, or 40+ assist men. Sometimes the grinders make things happen that ordinarily would not. Dupuis can help make things happen.
Dabich
Jul 8, 01:49 PM
Sprjudd, you are totally right. I’ve said this more than once: Geno is definitely the better all around player. He can make just about any linemate a better player when they are on the ice together. Don’t get me wrong, I like Sid, but I sometimes feel Geno is slighted or overlooked because of all the focus on The Kid.
If I HAD to choose between the two, I’d take Geno first. Thank goodness the Pens don’t have to choose :)
SprJudd
Jul 8, 02:16 PM
@Dabich – In terms of all around skill, I agree that Evgeni Malkin is the better player. That being said, I have never seen any player – ever – with the sheer determination to succeed and the will to win that Sidney Crosby has. Because of that, Malkin can be maddeningly inconsistent while Sid produces at a pretty steady rate (except with the spikes in production when he plays the Flyers). It is also because of that competitive fire that as an opponent of the Penguins, I’d be more willing to risk pissing off Geno than Sid – though both have shown what happens when you anger the beast.
And while this comparison may seem sacrilegious, I will make it anyway. I see more of Mario in Malkin and more of Gretzky in Crosby. Think about it:
Malkin – big; looks like the puck is tied to his stick at times; immensely talented; sometimes looks like he isn’t putting out his best effort; capable of completely dominating a game at the flip of a switch; elevates the play of his linemates; can play with pylons on his wings and rack up the points.
Crosby – not the biggest, strongest, or most skilled player on the ice, but is so determined to be the best that he is unstoppable at times; great playmaker with insanely amazing on-ice vision; one of the smartest (if not the smartest) hockey players in the league; has lulls in production without at least one top-notch winger.
I agree with you, Dabich, that I hope the Pens never have to choose which one to keep and which to send packing.
SprJudd
Jul 8, 02:18 PM
I should add that I am not saying Malkin is anywhere near the level of Mario, nor am I saying Crosby is anywhere near the level of Gretzky. I am just saying that some comparisons can be made. And the Pens will be winning quite a few more Cups in the future if those comparisons can still stack up in 5-10 years.
Matt Bodenschatz
Jul 8, 02:23 PM
@Sprjudd, thanks for clearing that up. It makes sense that the contract has to begin prior to age 35. Just makes this deal with the Flyers look all that more stupid for the team.
@Dabich, I tend to look at Dupuis like a super utility player in baseball. You know the guys, the ones who play all positions and end up playing in as many games as starters, though at a different position each game. I can see Dupuis shifting up and down the lineup and from the left to ride wing. He’s a very versatile player — one who is more valuable to the Penguins than many think. He’s overpriced, for sure, but that’s not a reason to trade him — especially if the idea is simply to save money. If/when Shero needs money, he’ll make a hockey move to better his team. He won’t, however, simply trade a player to make a lateral move or to add a player with character issues and/or a player who plays one-dimensional hockey.
re: Malkin. He definitely is overlooked, and I truly think that is good. Malkin has said in the past he is more reserved and prefers not to have the spotlight. This would be enforced by his few and short interviews. Now, should he get some better linemates? Sure, but I don’t think he’s been all that slighted. You always want to do what’s best for the team, not an individual player. Crosby tends to need players capable of keeping up with him. By giving him those players, the team improves. Malkin doesn’t need as talented of wingers to be successful. So it stands to reason Malkin isn’t going to get the better wingers.
Now, if I had to choose one or the other to start a team with, I go Crosby all the way. Why? Well, first of all, he’s more marketable because he speaks English. That alone makes him a bigger money draw. But he’s also a better leader. Malkin is the better talent, but they’re not far off. When you factor in Crosby’s intangibles, I think it tips the scales in his favor, if only slightly. What I am saying is that it is purely opinion which is better, and that you can’t choose wrong.
Dabich
Jul 8, 03:21 PM
Matt, It’s a luxury that the Pens don’t have to shop for linemates for Malkin. I don’t mind that he plays with what he gets, and I doubt he does either :) (And don’t take that “plays with what he gets out of context lol).
Give Malkin a year or two, and he will be more fluent in English and more comfortable with the spot light. Sure, he’ll still be more shy than Crosby, but he’s already made huge strides in overcoming that.
Again, I am not knocking Sid. I am thankful we have both of these guys on our team.
Dabich
Jul 8, 03:24 PM
Sprjudd, good analogy with Sid/Gretzky and Geno/Mario.
I’ve also been of the opinion that Mario is a better player than Gretzky, as the Great One never had to overcome all the adversity that Mario had to deal with. Hell, his team stunk up the league for years. Then his Hodgkins disease and his back problems.
Had he had more of the benefits that Grets had, I think he would have surpassed him all around. Of course that is speculation, but again, it’s just my HUMBLE opinion :)
bag o' pucks
Jul 8, 04:42 PM
Re: Malkin linemates. Caputi, maybe, if he outright wins the job in camp. I’m skeptical he’s ready, but that’s for camp to answer. Jeffrey, no. I know mgmt is high on this kid, but he doesn’t have the hands to be top-six and doesn’t project as top-six. Jeffrey scored all of 11 goals in 63 AHL games last season. I like his game, but 4th line centerman is about his ceiling on this team. As much as it may pain anyone to admit, Pascal Dupuis is better scorer than Jeffrey and a better option for Malkin’s wing.
Re: Comparisons. I hear people compare Malkin to Mario frequently (Steigy…), likely because they’re centermen, but I don’t see it. Malkin’s style is much more reminiscent of Jagr, in playing style, stride, etc. A big, untamed horse galloping around the zone with the puck on a string. When Mario and Franchise left, Jagr controlled the puck on his line regardless of who was his centerman. And Jagr dominated along the same half-wall where Malkin is most dangerous. I see a lot of Jagr in Malkin, but no Mario, really.
henkegbgskea
Jul 9, 02:53 AM
well my statement is quite easy to understand i believe anyways…
=)
Philly getting better with Pronger
Rngers getting much better with Gaborik and Higgins
and so on pens have to get a backup goalie
at least one defenceman
and letting Pesonen go is very odd he is a gifted player i just dont get sheros thinking.
we need more offensive players …
not just grinders with great attitude sorry but that just my take on this …
Matt Bodenschatz
Jul 9, 10:31 AM
@Pucks, I definitely agree that Caputi should earn that second line position, but I wouldn’t be opposed to lower standards for him to earn it. Not to turn into an “automatically promote all prospects” type, but what do they have to lose in this situation? It’s entirely different than banking on Caputi to be their full-time second line center. He’d be pulling a Goligoski, only for a much shorter time.
If he looks like a fish out of water, demote him quickly. If he holds his own, keep him up.
I also agree that Malkin looks much more like Jagr. They have very similar skating and playing styles. I’ve often said that when watching him skate.
@Henke, Philly got a very good player in Pronger, but he’s an aging, declining player. They also lost two top-six forwards without replacing them, and they replaced their goaltending duo with a career backup/minor leaguer and a headcase with average skills. They may be more physical to play against, but I don’t think they’re a better team.
The Rangers could go either way. Losing Gomez and replacing him with Higgins is a downgrade no matter how you look at it. They also lost Naslund and won’t be bringing back Zherdev. The make or break piece is Gaborik, who has world-class skills, but is injured for more games than he plays. If he stays healthy, the Rangers could be improved. If not, they took a big step back.
Looking at the big picture, I see Pittsburgh, Washington and Boston as the cream of the East, with Carolina in a close fourth.
Regarding Pesonen, it takes two to tango. I think Shero has likely told him he’ll be an AHL player with potential for promotion, but no guarantees. Pesonen likely wants a better shot at the NHL and will move on to a team that can offer that. The Penguins do need more skilled players, but not just skill for the sake of skill.
bag o' pucks
Jul 9, 11:14 AM
As long as Geno doesn’t start sporting a mullet…
SprJudd
Jul 9, 12:45 PM
@Matt – I don’t know if I would classify Washington as a “cream of the East” team…yet. They have an inflated point total due to the division they play in. Folks may not agree with me, but this is my assessment of the Caps:
Offense: The Capitals appear offensively loaded, but a long-term injury to Alex Ovechkin and the Caps are toast. Mike Knuble should help them with developing a second scoring line (probably by shifting Semin to a second line), but they don’t have a good second line center with Sergei Fedorov off in the KHL.
Defense: They are a soft bunch who don’t knock people around as much as they should. Their top defensive pairing is also easily exploited because Mike Green is little more than a forward who can skate backwards.
Goaltending: This could be trouble for the Capitals if they have to rely on Theodore. As far as Varlamov goes, he’s a guy known for not being able to withstand the rigors of regular starting duty. I don’t believe he’s started more than 35-40 games in an AHL season (and showed signs of wearing down at that), so he probably won’t be able to do much better in the NHL. Additionally, the Pens showed how to exploit him with high shots and traffic in front. Varlamov could prove me wrong, but I think Michael Neuvirth (spelling?) is the better goaltending prospect for them.
That all being said, I concede that the Caps are a lock to finish in the top 3 of the East, but only due to their division and not necessarily due to their skill.
Sorry for the long post about the Caps (this being a Penguins-focused site and all).
Dabich
Jul 9, 01:00 PM
Bags, you’re full of yourself again LOL!
Sprjudd, I tend to agree with you about Washington, especially if AO gets hurt.
Dabich
Jul 9, 01:51 PM
Since we’ve already brought Jagr’s name into the mix, has anyone heard anything further on him wanting to come back and play for the Pens for one last season?
bag o' pucks
Jul 9, 08:56 PM
Hey Dabich, how’s it going?
JIM
Jul 10, 05:23 AM
You guys are all high on Dupuis…he sure was great during the playoffs, wasn’t he? Zero points in 16 games and he got benched. This is the guy you all feel will be just a wonderful fit on Malkin’s right side?
As for Matt Cooke, where did I say he was the second coming of Gretzky?...and he will be a UFA after this coming season, just to set the record straight. Cooke was fifth in the NHL with 262 hits, but I guess it is more important to have a fighter (Godard). At least some of the other enforcers you mentioned have some level of skill.
Dabich
Jul 10, 08:34 AM
Hey Pucks, it goes :)
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